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 Post subject: Working on team chemical vision!
PostPosted: Fri 24 Jul 2015, 02:56 
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Finally back into coding again after a month of map making. Feels good man! What I'm working on now is the ability to see your allies chemicals. This will help with team strategizing as well as make it much easier to duplicate allied chemicals (coming next version too). What I've worked on today is how it will look. After experimenting a bit I've decided the best solution is to show small coloured circles on the ground wherever an allied chemical is. Check it:

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This picture shows 2 allies screens side by side. It's very easy to tell your own chemicals and allied chemicals apart. The allied chemicals are just tiny little circles. I chose to represent them like this for 3 main reasons:
1) It makes it very easy to differentiate between your own and allied chemicals. So you'll never accidentally try to use an allied chemical.
2) It's a lot cleaner. Imagine in a 8v8 game if everyone's chemicals were rendered the same size as your own. It'd be a total mess.
3) For performance reasons, rendering all allied chemicals at their full size would slow down the game too much. These little circles are easier.

Now you might be saying... BUT WAIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!one how do I know the exact size of my allies chemicals if I want to duplicate it or drop a gun into it to help my ally? Well to that I say firstly, it's pretty damn obvious how big the chemical ranges are. But secondly, whenever you're actually standing inside an allied chemical it will light up and glow a little. As you can see from the picture the Base Chemicals and Sonar Cells on the right are brighter than the ones on the left because I'm standing in them.

Anywhoo, so that's how this is working so far. Pretty cool! It even shows insulation and base upgrades as well (though it's a bit hard to see from this low res picture).

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 Post subject: Re: Working on team chemical vision!
PostPosted: Fri 24 Jul 2015, 02:58 
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just tell me why on earth you decided to make chemicals personal ? they should be all team shared !


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 Post subject: Re: Working on team chemical vision!
PostPosted: Fri 24 Jul 2015, 03:17 
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We got into a pretty huge discussion about this a month ago or so which I'm not really interested in starting up again.. but it all boils down to problems with scaling server sizes. Free sharing between allies might work with the CURRENT server sizes, but that's not good enough. We have to think of the future. I want MF to support epic 32v32 player servers one day, and free sharing of chemicals would not work well in this case. There would be 2 possible outcomes:

1) Everyone continues to buy the same number of chemicals as they currently do, in which case you'd have 32x as many chemicals on the map. This is game breaking and completely destroys plenty of systems in the game (no need for vehicles as you can warp anywhere. No need for revealing skills as the entire map is covered in Sonar Cells. Cash system is meaningless as everyone has alchemic acid everywhere.) Chemicals are great when they provide you a special benefit. If everyone has that benefit 32x spread all over the map it's a giant mess.
2) Alternatively everyone buys drastically fewer chemicals because they already get them from their allies. But in this case you'd buy on average 32x fewer chemicals, or basically.. none at all, throwing away the fun of the chemical system. You'd either buy no chemicals at all which sucks.. or you'd buy the bare minimum of a Base and a single Warp Field or something.. which also sucks AND still results in 32 warp fields in the map.

Basically no matter what way you look at it throwing a 32x scaling at the chemical system breaks the game. Either you have too many chemicals to choose from or you buy none at all. It is mathematically impossible for 32 players on the same team to create any sort of meaningful chemical base when they're all sharing without the game exploding. IMPOSSIBRRRUUU! Again, it's a fun idea at first glance and it *might* have worked for our current player base. But it will never work in a full server.

Annnnywhoo, this is all moot anyway because the new duplicating system is going to be way more strategic and fun than free sharing anyway. You actually care about your own chemicals and get to make interesting decisions about which chemical to duplicate, when, and where. Chemicals are fun because you have to pay for them and as a result make strategic decisions. You get to decide between 2 new Warp Fields or a Nailgun. You only have enough to buy 1 Alchemic Acid so you need to decide where to place it. You feel awesome when these decisions pay off and you succeed as a result. Good players earn more cash and have more chemicals for themselves.. you are rewarded for being a good player as you should b e. Basssically chemicals have more value and are more fun when you have to work for them, not get them for free. This duplicating chemical will cost cash and introduce plenty more strategic decisions to feel good about as you construct your base. It's going to be great!

Oh also you'll be able to duplicate ENEMY chemicals which will provide a very cool dynamic compared to Neutralizing. Should be good :)

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 Post subject: Re: Working on team chemical vision!
PostPosted: Fri 24 Jul 2015, 03:32 
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mmhhmm fair enough


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 Post subject: Re: Working on team chemical vision!
PostPosted: Fri 24 Jul 2015, 03:41 
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How about a bigger circle where you can see the whole thing in just an outline with the outline color changing depending on what's in it? Plus remember we can turn on and off teammates vision for our chems and in huge games like 32v32 you won't be sharing vision with everyone. Only in smaller or ranked games will this happen.
Or maybe I'm totally off. Just a thought.

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 Post subject: Re: Working on team chemical vision!
PostPosted: Fri 24 Jul 2015, 04:02 
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I actually tried the ring idea first, but it was too messy. All the rings overlapped and it was even harder to see what chemical was what. And that's just with 1 player, an actual team would be too much. I figure this system is fine though. You don't actually NEED to see the full radius of your allied chemicals anyway. It's not like you can use them. The white glow thing is enough for when you want to duplicate you'll know for sure you're inside the range, but apart from that these little circles are all you need I think. They tell you where a chemical is so you know where to stand to duplicate. They let you know where you can defend to help out your allies. Also you can pretty easily guess what the radius of these things are anyway. These small circles are just the cleanest way to represent them (unless they were to show exclusively in the minimap, but that's a bit harder to use I think).

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 Post subject: Re: Working on team chemical vision!
PostPosted: Fri 24 Jul 2015, 06:19 
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From the screenshot the little circles still look a bit too visible, it can be pretty distracting. Could you make it a little more transparent so that its just noticeable but not eye-catching?

Also, it might be good to be able to see which teammate a chemical belongs to when you are standing in it (only shows one name if its overlapping with other chemicals, based on which chemical's center you are closest to). The main reason is so I know which of my teammates can actually warp and which teammate's alchemic acid I should deposit and unwanted weapon in.

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 Post subject: Re: Working on team chemical vision!
PostPosted: Fri 24 Jul 2015, 06:23 
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Yup agreed. This is just a proof of concept atm.

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 Post subject: Re: Working on team chemical vision!
PostPosted: Fri 24 Jul 2015, 13:33 
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Pretty darn nice, but I'd really like to be able to use allied base chem and warps, the other should be your own.


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 Post subject: Re: Working on team chemical vision!
PostPosted: Fri 24 Jul 2015, 14:47 
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not warps but base definitely can be shared. it wont be clusterfuck, because nobody will spam them like sonars.

even on huge team there will be couple base chems in base and just a few more in key areas. because team doesnt need more than that and they are basically 20k.


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 Post subject: Re: Working on team chemical vision!
PostPosted: Fri 24 Jul 2015, 15:51 
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I know it probably has nothing to do with it but as multiple people have pointed out before we (the players) wanna focus on gameplay not buying chems for placement so that alone should stop the chem overflow prob.
Just my opinion unless someone is using chems like crazy anyway. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Working on team chemical vision!
PostPosted: Fri 24 Jul 2015, 16:37 
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Just to clear a few things up based on the discussion we had regarding chemical sharing:
* You don't actually share chemicals with your allies. Instead, using a new Duplicator chemical costing about 2k, you can make your own personal copy of someone else's chemical. If you use it on an enemy's, you essentially bought a new chemical for a lower cost and can place it anywhere you want immediately. If you use it on an ally, you will only make a personal copy at the exact same spot. If you use it on your own chemical, it will pack it up for you to replace it somewhere else.

* If you use this on a Base Chemical, you'd always only get the Base Chemical. You don't get the upgrades such as Bionic Gas along with it, otherwise that'd be way too gamebreaking. Also, unlike Neutralizer, if there are multiple chemicals overlapping, you'd only take 1 chemical you are standing closest to the center of.

* At some point people will pretty much stop placing/duplicating chemicals except maybe Sonars. You'd already have pretty much everything you need, additional spots become incredibly hard to place and easy to neutralize(giving the enemy money and wasting your own), and start focusing heavily on completing the objective. Afterall, you can build a chemical empire all you want, but that would be for nothing if you lost the actual objective, plus chemicals are reset after the match is over.


Other notable chemical changes that have been planned/added:
* Insulator is going to be removed (reason here). Instead, there are plans to make the Base's upgrade (eg: Bionic Gas, Toxic Bullets, Quick Pouring) itself be the insulator. Meaning if the upgraded base gets neutralized, the base is still there, but the upgrade is gone(you get 5k reward) and the next neutralize will kill it(plus another 5k).

* Neutralizer can be bought from spawn, not just from a Base Chemical.

* You can use a Warp Field to teleport to a Base Chemical. This is a 1-way trip; you cannot use a Base to warp to other bases or warp fields.

* Walking into Toxic Bullets base automatically upgrades your guns to become toxic instead of forcing you to buy a whole new gun from the toxic base.
(EDIT: No, you don't automatically get Toxic from buying ammo/reloading from toxic base either, TDK)

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Last edited by STM1993 on Fri 24 Jul 2015, 17:43, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Working on team chemical vision!
PostPosted: Fri 24 Jul 2015, 17:34 
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STM1993 wrote:
* Walking into Toxic Bullets base automatically upgrades your guns to become toxic instead of forcing you to buy a whole new gun from the toxic base.

I thought you could get a reload and it would toxic your guns??

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 Post subject: Re: Working on team chemical vision!
PostPosted: Fri 24 Jul 2015, 19:36 
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TripleDropKick wrote:
STM1993 wrote:
* Walking into Toxic Bullets base automatically upgrades your guns to become toxic instead of forcing you to buy a whole new gun from the toxic base.

I thought you could get a reload and it would toxic your guns??


Unsure if I'll do it by ammo purchase ore auto update just yet.

TripleDropKick wrote:
I know it probably has nothing to do with it but as multiple people have pointed out before we (the players) wanna focus on gameplay not buying chems for placement so that alone should stop the chem overflow prob.
Just my opinion unless someone is using chems like crazy anyway. ;)


I would argue that the act of placing chemicals IS part of the gameplay. Killing is a huge part of this game, but it's not everything. I personally find the most exciting part of the game is when I'm placing new chemicals, as the stakes are so much higher.


GG123Snipa wrote:
Pretty darn nice, but I'd really like to be able to use allied base chem and warps, the other should be your own.

Maximilian wrote:
not warps but base definitely can be shared. it wont be clusterfuck, because nobody will spam them like sonars.

even on huge team there will be couple base chems in base and just a few more in key areas. because team doesnt need more than that and they are basically 20k.


For the sake of consistency it's just nicer to make all the chemicals behave the same. And besides, in a 32v32 player game free sharing of bases would still be a bit of a clusterfuck as you'd have 32 bases to choose from, effectively rendering the concept of a buy zone meaningless. People will be spamming molotov cocktails and refilling ammo all over the map. There will be almost none of that exciting travel time when you're trying to place a chemical down because with 32 bases all over the map you're going to be standing next to one no matter where you are.

It all comes down to things having more value when they're rare. It's why people pay thousands of dollars for diamonds. When you only have a few chemicals each one of them becomes very important and any gameplay surrounding them is awesome as a result. It's fun if you manage to sneak a base behind the enemy spawn, so when they're chasing you down you buy another molotov and blast them in the face when they least suspect it. "What??? You have a base there?? You sneaky devil you outsmarted me yet again!" But when everyone has 32 bases to choose from none of that awesomeness exists. Of course you could buy a molotov behind my spawn zone.. everyone can buy everything everywhere. The market is flooded and all of a sudden chemicals become worthless. This is what can happen if there's nothing to prevent the number of chemicals scaling linearly with the server size.

Besides, with the duplicator chemical you'll be able to duplicate an allied chemical for only $2000 which is significantly cheaper than buying one outright for $10000 anyway. Just now instead of getting all these bases for free, you get to decide between grabbing that 2nd base or buying another Sonar Cell. The end result will be that you cherish and value every single one of your chemicals and your overall success in the game is a result of your base building skills.

Anyway let's just play it out. It's going to be really cool, trust me.

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 Post subject: Re: Working on team chemical vision!
PostPosted: Sat 25 Jul 2015, 13:29 
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Minor qualm, just make base chems warpable to and from. For consistency. Otherwise that ability to warp to them becomes sort of useless as you'll have to put a warp near it for warping out too. Plus its confusing.

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 Post subject: Re: Working on team chemical vision!
PostPosted: Sat 25 Jul 2015, 14:19 
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Nightfall wrote:
Minor qualm, just make base chems warpable to and from. For consistency. Otherwise that ability to warp to them becomes sort of useless as you'll have to put a warp near it for warping out too. Plus its confusing.

Sounds really overpowered, especially when paired with the new Duplicator chemical.

Why bother buying 5k Warp Fields when I can just build a tonne of 10/20k Bases for only 4k (2 duplicators, one for copying from an ally and one for moving) that comes with the ability to buy ammo/guns/chemicals?

Not that confusing either really, my only real qualm with this setup as tested on the new .exe is that if I decide to set up a Warp Field inside a Base, I'd see two warp arrows pointing to the Base. The whole idea of making it possible to teleport to Base from a Warp Field is to encourage players to set up a base further away instead of inside spawn zone (and so the 1st Warp Field you buy isn't useless).

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